Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Woman:Bitch::Man:?

I was having this discussion with my friend Vijay today, and as with all our arguments we were trying to prove each other wrong, he was trying to make me see his point( but i think there was no point at all) and today we decided to take it online to my blog, that way we can get in more people on the discussion and also we'll( Vijay and Me) be able to archive all the conversations for later, so now moving on to the actual issue.

Everything started with me asking Vijay his opinion on why there was no term to refer to a man equivalent to 'bitch' for a woman. And his reply was there can never be a term describing such behavior in men cos' genetically all men are made to be bitchy. He was implying that a girl who sleeps around is a bitch, while a guy doing the same thing is being normal. He argument was that genetically men are made that way, and there is nothing wrong in them having a strong libido and bedding a lot of women, but then women aren't genetically designed to have an active sex life as men. ( Yep, he's a male chauvinist, no offense !! But you accept this right ?). That started all this ..

My point was that men and women both have similar sexual needs, and there is really no difference in their desire or need for sex, maybe that in the society( everywhere) the needs of a woman are suppressed by the men around them, they made it this way - a woman must accept sex when given and must never ask for it or a woman asking for it is a nymph or something like that, and all this talk about men having a right to fuck multiple women and get away with it, but women doing the same stuff need to be called bitches is total crap according to me.

We then started looking at the reasons affecting sexual desires in people, and we looked at factors that affects an adult's libido (other than the environment, his/her upbringing, the society etc). We then agreed we could use the testosterone as a factor, the sex hormone responsible for sexual functioning in humans( not only men, some people associate testosterone only with men), his point was that an average adult human male produces 8 to 10 times more testosterone than an adult female body( found this to be true), so men have a reason to crave for sex, so according to him craving for sex is normal and hence even if a man sleeps around a lot, he cannot be called a 'male equivalent of a bitch', he says this is the reason why there exists no(popular) term for a man who whores around.

After a little wikipediaing i found some stuff to hold against his theory, i found that testosterone is not only a sex hormone, but it is also responsible for other things like muscle mass development, maintenance of bone density, overall mental and physical strength in addition to affecting libido. Now i'm sure all the extra testosterone that we men produce goes into all the above mentioned stuff ( muscle mass, bone density, strength etc) and in the end both men and women have the same amount of testosterone controlling their sexual desires. ( This might sound lame, but this is what i 'wish'). I would like to find some concrete evidence from a study that says men and women have a equal libido genetically.

But even without all the hormone stuff, i think this is total crap. What is wrong in having the same desires as men. Men are normal when they do it, but the women are 'bitch-tagged'.

This isn't fair. My POV ..

I've tried explaining Vijay's argument here, but then i'm sure he'll want to write down his views himself, so please don't forget to check the comments ( hint: look for the long comment which is full of dots between words, thats .. how.. he.. writes ...)

Thats pretty much all..

Woman:Bitch::Man:? = Woman:Bitch::Man:Man ...? Nah .. I don't think ..

Don't forget to comment .. a simple whose point you accept will suffice ( but this isn't like voting) , but another two lines of 'why' would be superawesome. And about the discussion please keep it clean, no mud slinging, or getting personal etc.

Cheers.

Edit: Now i don't mean to make Vijay look like a heartless male chauvinist even though he is, ( a male chauvinist i don't mean heartless), you also need to look beyond his male chauvinistic attitude and look at the point he is making here. I'm going to try and summarize both our points here, that way my readers who wish to comment can grasp his exact argument.

Vijay: Women are not genetically designed to want sex as much as men, this regardless of the society et. al., if we take a male and a female subject ( two people who have had no contact with the world) and put them in isolation, then the man will surely have more sexual urges than a woman. This is cos' a man has it in his hormones. And now cos' of this a man sleeping around with a lot of women is to be considered normal but a woman doing the same isn't normal ( p.s: he does not say it is wrong). And hence the deviation from expected ( normal ) behavior in women has led to this term - 'bitch', but then due to all the reasons stated above a term to describe such behavior in men isn't needed.

Me: I disagree with him on everything he says ( surprised ?), first of all i think both men and women have equal sexual urges( genetically and everything), and all this 'because they are designed like that' talk is just crap ( according to me). Now even if by some remote chance his claims of 'men are made that way' is true, i still don't agree with him saying there needs to be no term to describe men who sleep around. Cos' that is so unfair.


Now Bring it on ..

17 ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS:

Venkat said...

Nice conversation man.Even I've read a couple of articles regarding the hormonal activities.Even I'm pretty convinced that though men produce testosterone,the quantity finally remains for both men and women that get them sexually activated.So I don't see that as a point of argument at all.

It all comes down to the community that we live in and our history.I don't think that I have to comment a lot about the community we live in.Just see the people from other traditions.Do you think that they are prevented with doing what they like?

As for the history stuff is considered,men have been the dominant sex all the way.So even that makes a person feel that probably men can do anything while a women with the same attitude is tagged as a bitch.

I don't see why they have to be so very restrictive.Its up to them and withouth this society factor into account I don't see anything stopping them.Also I feel women have this fear of what might happen if improper contraceptive methods are followed.I guess you get what I say.

So there's no point arguing.Both are equally active though men show it off openly and henceforth we feel that we are designed to be that way.Its just the perspective of our view.Don't conclude it because of that.

Srikanth... Lonely shadow said...

For the first time buddy... u have chosen a good topic for discussion...
Vijay... if u are reading this... then i am very sorry... in this issue i need 2 agree with guru...
i seem to very much agree to the facts that if any woman who sleeps with more than one man is termed as a "bitch", then i should say... every man is a born bitch...
its totally unfair to rate any person in such a way...
this totally depends (in my POV) on the person's sexual desires, his/hear sex appeal.... and a lot on the environment in which they were brought up...
Indian Culture strongly supports the one man- one woman theory... but in practice its not possible...
lets analyze this with a little scientific facts.. on average any human reaches puberty (the apt age for mating) when he/she is about 15... this according to mother nature is a sign that the human is ready to mate at that age... (this may have been a reason for child marriages).... once a person attains his/her puberty, its hard to control his sexual desires, coz the hormones (generally, testosterone in men and progesterone in women) act rapidly to aggravate their sexual desires and making the person crave for sex... this happens naturally, and this is no sin (which most people think...)
Now the decision of having sex... is left to the individual... for women.. losing their virginity, means the breaking of the hymen and also improper menstrual cycles. but for men, there is no such indication, this (again in my POV) should have made the men think themselves superior to women or something of the sort, and they could have made up the culture of polygamy (one man can have many wives... but woman should be loyal to her husband only) and all the other "shit" like a woman who sleeps with more than one man is termed as a "bitch" or "slut"
Men take the cover of culture to keep this stupid argument still alive over the many generations... and the few women who dared to step outta this are branded by the society and treated with disrespect...
in my POV... woman:bitch::man:DBOE (disgusting being on earth)

VIJAY a.k.a VJ said...

Well i guess i gotta make my stand clear here,the whole thing started off when guru asked me "why you call a women bitching around as bitch and men bitching around by no such term".My point is pretty much similar to what srikanth has said,men are born bitches(though bitch is a name for female dog,in this sense...),this is due to the gentic design or more aptly the basic nature of design of men.

But women are more precautious or i would say smart (in local tamil "gethu") when it comes to sexual matters.Their sexual cravings are not equivalent to that of men,this again according to me is because of genetic design.

This doesn't mean women don't feel sexual desires,but ,that they have it in a less intense manner than that of men..

So when a women breaks her normal pattern,and behaves like a slut or more aptly like men,then they get their name as "bitch",or "slut" or "whore" or watever....

@guru: Machan it is true that we must have a name for men with these qualities,but as i said earlier it is a well known fact that men are "born bitches",so i don't find it nescessary to entitle them with another name..

Guru said...

I'll be writing a long reply soon replying to the questions raised by venkat and srikanth , but before that a few things ..

@ Srikanth: What makes you think all my other discussion topics aren't good enough ? Nee reservation patthi pesa mattiya ? ;-)

And like i said he does not ever speak about women being bitch-tagged, he just says a similar derog. term for men isn't required at all.

And you sure about progesterone being the female sex hormone, cos' all the research i did suggests testosterone is the sex hormone both in men and women. Could you confirm that for me, cos' if what you say is true i get to edit the wikepedia entry.

From what i looked up progesterone is the hormone involved in the female menstrual cycle, pregnancy and embryogenesis.

And about your whole argument you seem to have misunderstood vijay's point, plz read my edited post and if you can reply here.

Cheers..

VIJAY a.k.a VJ said...

And group,

Which sex are we talking about,a random sex with some random person???

If so,then i go totally with GURU'S VERSION OF MY VIEWS,Cause even then,the sexual cravings of a man is defenitely(cent percent accor to me)more than that of a women

Arun Sundar said...

Such men should be called A-holes.

ela said...

Hmmmm...mudal naal college lae ithu thaan discussion a?......romba thivyam.....

So guys....now steady urself and listen to a women's verdict on the topic.....

I don't think that it is the high level of testosterone that makes Men macho and sleep around.....In that case not all men are sleeping around with women.....so it simply boils down to the conditioning of a man or woman as an individual...
Mostly it is like....sandarpam kidaikada varaykum sanyasi kathai for most men....For woman it is the social conditioning that our society has strictly imposed on them....I mean the whole maanam and mariyathai of a family depends on a girl so that she cannot be spotted talking to a guy by any family friend, neighbours and relatives....

But i don't think our society was like that.....we had been quite an open society..now it is mostly the victorian ideas of womanhood that we have gladly wed to and are struggling with....

And always women have remained as the means by which men have wielded power....During the kings days, if u want to eliminate a possible enemy/ forge a strong friendship then marry women from that family.....and later on to keep one's family assets marry among close relatives....

And in those days of hard existence where infant mortality and survival was hard, a woman who can stand all hardships and can reproduce like hell...so that the survival of the family for generations is promised...also a huge family is a workforce by itself....

See....women had been very vital for the survival of human race....and if something is so important for survival how else one makes sure that it stays that way? just by keeping it under control...never letting it realise it's important.....

Inevitably after every war...rapes followed.....just to make sure that the indegenious population does not remain so after a generation...Remove the identity and u can completely destroy ur enemy...
That's what exactly still the islamic world does....when a women is raped by other sects of people just kill the women rather than letting the offspring of the other people be born and pollute one's own race...

Well, all the above things are not possible if we don't rear a bunch of women to whom their chastity is as important as their life, isn't?

In most African countries, the practice of FGM still exists....why is it done? so that the woman cannot actually enjoy the sexual process, so will stay loyal to her husband always...i.e, stay at home, cook, clean, make babies for him...

I was surprised and disgusted when i came to know that FGM also exists in India among some classes of muslim people....

So, in such a scenario, how can u even think of classifying people? Isn't unfair to judge when years and years conditioning has completely tipped off the balance?

Anyway, i also think that to have sex or not is individual's decision....if someone thinks they are ready for it and could take responsibility esp. where new new diseases are showing up every day...then i am not their judge...

For me, sex does not exist.... only love making, which is a gentle and comforting and wonderful thing that happens between two persons who love, care and respect each other....

VIJAY a.k.a VJ said...

Nice to have women's pov here..
@ELA: If iam not wrong ,your point is that men and women both have equal sexual cravings ..

Am i right??

ela said...

Yes Vijay...it only differs on how they execute...My very looong comment (sorry Guru!) tried to sort of explain how that difference just happened to be here!

And Nature itself has programmed few subtle differences in ways of executing those desires between men and women, so that the best is propagated further...(that's why women are picky when it comes to chosing whom they want as partners!atleast one of us has to be smartand practical!)


I guess a vast majority of married women in our country are sexually starved since their emotions and opinions in that matter are grossly ignored by their men...and sticking to the social stigma, they try ignore their feelings and just be a wife, then a mother and so on....




So my conclusion would be..

1.there is no need to look for a term for men since the very word Bitch itself is very unfair to be used

2. If we cannot persuade our people not to use the term Bitch then we can use the term kindly forwarded by Arun to tag men with....with slight modifications....so my vote will be for Perverted A-holes

But personally i would be happy, in future, if there is no need for us to use such terms agaist each other and if we can all live happily ever after as one nice society.

ela said...

Sorry to interfere, but the elder sister in me is nagging...

Guru....people should be respected for whatever they are....u gave ur explanations to vijay but there is no need to call him with that name again and again.... if he decides to be one he will be, no matter whatever u call him....so don't hurt him like that...

So Guru and vijay, just call truce...u don't want to sabotage ur friendship over women, do u?

VIJAY a.k.a VJ said...

@ela: Thanks for trying to bring a solution to this.This conversation between me and guru could go on forever.This kind of arguements are common between us.I try to enforce my views on him and he tries the same on me,and we end up no where..and i can't remember a single time when we ended up in a conclusion.

@guru:Again,just skim your previous comment,look at how you are still trying to enforce your views on others,and "you will stop because you want to and not because iam saying"???
Hi ter ego kid..
Anyways no more comments from my side..
Also iam not goin na comment on any further conversational posts of yours,coz its much like we both chatting in YM,lets rather do it in person..

Guru said...

Hey Ela,

This post is definitely not about finding a word equivalent for bitch, and i'm against this word too.

Particularly cos' of all those bastards in my college who think it is their right to pass their judgment on every single girl. And for them every other girl is a bitch, i'm not talking about guys in my college referring to girls as bitches, they actually comfortably assume the girls have a bitchy character.

A popular line in my college is ' Macha, Ava evan kooptalum vandhuduva' and there are guys who actually mean that, and look down upon girls this way, and i hate every motherfcuking bastard who does that. I'm not saying i'm a saint here, i sure use that word a little excessively, but i don't mean a goddamn thing, but there are so many other guys who are just sick perverts.

And nice point there for why women choose to have single partners.

And thanks a lot for your opinion, i really appreciate you posting here. We needed a girl's viewpoint.

And even i prefer to 'make love' rather than 'have sex', i've given this a lot of thought.

And about your sisterly advice, you're right, maybe i went a little overboard.

Peace..

ela said...

Cool down, it's not only ur collegemates but most men are like that.....

Sometimes i can't help my imagination....if there was only one change that happened during evolution....that it is men who has to carry babies and go thru labour....then the title and content of this post would have been completley different......

Angel said...

hi, i have had 3 bitches in my life, oops i mean 3 women. thats all, i guess u all understood

Sakshi said...

Was browsing thru the archives and found this. Couldnt resist a comment so dont hit me or label me an idiot for commenting now..

I agree with guru. Totally. And being a student of biology i can tell you that both sexes have pretty much equal sexual urges..okay, at least biologically. Practically, men have an upper hand at least in the Indian society coz women are brought up the-way-they-are. (you know what i mean?)
Women are programmed to feel the same as men but with all the hacking that takes place once you are launched in india, totally screws their RAM. They are stuffed with all that shit against pre-marital sex and that sleeping with anybody but your husband is blasphemous n all that bull.
This makes them a bit reserved and not that they have less effective hormones or whatever..


Get the drift?
And i hate the fact that men are called players and girls are called sluts. huh! too unfair! Coin a meaner word for whorish-men.

btw, women:bitch::men:dog.
Seriously, we (me n a few frns)call that kinda men dogs. We really do.

Krishna said...

Hi

This is Krish and I would like to mention a bit about what I think

There should be no discrimination which encourages women to be mentioned "bitchy". Concept is "you would like to sleep with multiple girls but you need a virgin wife". Such male chauvenists still hold the upper hand in a so-called cultured society like ours

The reason why women were suppressed should have been this. Men walk around with a swollen ass and are mostly looking around for vulnerable women so that he can rest his sexual urge

Men are not born bitchy but they are made so because they have easy exposure to erotica, porn and all such stuff. They look for ways to satisfy their desire and there come all illicit ways - websites, adult blogs. One can not even imagine how many websites thrive on dating, call girls, call guys, gay, and all such diversified manifestations of just one word "sex"

You people might know that the hormonal secretion increases multi-fold on visual stimulation. Girls too have a stimulation on seeing a handsome guy, but they are brought up in a way that makes them believe its a mistake when you try to practise your thoughts. That's the reason there are quite a few so-called "whores" in the society as compared to the whole lot of bitch boys (ratio may be 50:1)

So, when a strictly-brought-up girl accepts a sexual offer from a well-brought-up-still-whory guy, this serves as a means to drain the guy's sexual arousing. This might be the reason to control girls as all know that men are basically whory

So, the key to the control is held by women in the view of this society. Women have equal opportunities to commit sexual sins as men, but they do not as they have much more stronger control on their urges than most men have. How many men would walk away not accepting a good offer from a beautiful girl. Some would think even I would accept the offer. Yes, I would :-)

But I would never blame a woman who has been tagged a 'bitch'. In one way she is serving the society. Every man has a brute inside him which can make him commit serious crimes. Unfortunately in most cases, calming down this beast is seriously related to satisfying one's sexual needs. The woman who is bitch-tagged actually helps to calm down this savage rage in men and prevent him from galloping off the track. One can think their pathetic situation which made them choose such a profession. Curse the society which turned otherwise-worshippable-housewives into bitch-tagged sex machines!!!

The society should change a lot and think a lot. Sex has been posed as a threat, as a sinful act, as a deed of shame and something pretty ugly. The truth is on the contrary. Sex is a beautiful feeling, an ocean of love, something which has to be relished and not ridiculed. But one has to play safe and this can be enjoyed in a "a man for a woman" sort of society. There is no enjoyment in paid sex as it is a scheduled fu..ing drama

If I posted something wrong, please pardon me guys and girls

Krishna said...

Hi

This is Krish and I would like to mention a bit about what I think

There should be no discrimination which encourages women to be mentioned "bitchy". Concept is "you would like to sleep with multiple girls but you need a virgin wife". Such male chauvenists still hold the upper hand in a so-called cultured society like ours

The reason why women were suppressed should have been this. Men walk around with a swollen ass and are mostly looking around for vulnerable women so that he can rest his sexual urge

Men are not born bitchy but they are made so because they have easy exposure to erotica, porn and all such stuff. They look for ways to satisfy their desire and there come all illicit ways - websites, adult blogs. One can not even imagine how many websites thrive on dating, call girls, call guys, gay, and all such diversified manifestations of just one word "sex"

You people might know that the hormonal secretion increases multi-fold on visual stimulation. Girls too have a stimulation on seeing a handsome guy, but they are brought up in a way that makes them believe its a mistake when you try to practise your thoughts. That's the reason there are quite a few so-called "whores" in the society as compared to the whole lot of bitch boys (ratio may be 50:1)

So, when a strictly-brought-up girl accepts a sexual offer from a well-brought-up-still-whory guy, this serves as a means to drain the guy's sexual arousing. This might be the reason to control girls as all know that men are basically whory

So, the key to the control is held by women in the view of this society. Women have equal opportunities to commit sexual sins as men, but they do not as they have much more stronger control on their urges than most men have. How many men would walk away not accepting a good offer from a beautiful girl. Some would think even I would accept the offer. Yes, I would :-)

But I would never blame a woman who has been tagged a 'bitch'. In one way she is serving the society. Every man has a brute inside him which can make him commit serious crimes. Unfortunately in most cases, calming down this beast is seriously related to satisfying one's sexual needs. The woman who is bitch-tagged actually helps to calm down this savage rage in men and prevent him from galloping off the track. One can think their pathetic situation which made them choose such a profession. Curse the society which turned otherwise-worshippable-housewives into bitch-tagged sex machines!!!

The society should change a lot and think a lot. Sex has been posed as a threat, as a sinful act, as a deed of shame and something pretty ugly. The truth is on the contrary. Sex is a beautiful feeling, an ocean of love, something which has to be relished and not ridiculed. But one has to play safe and this can be enjoyed in a "a man for a woman" sort of society. There is no enjoyment in paid sex as it is a scheduled fu..ing drama

If I posted something wrong, please pardon me guys and girls

 
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